Taonga pūoro: The Music of Nature in Flute and Forests

A podcast with Māori Storyteller Dane Scott

Oct 01, 2024

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Episode Description

What if there was no wrong way to hold music? No Maths, no charts, just relationship with spirit? What if music was the infiniteness of breath held in Nature's melodies?

This conversation with Māori storyteller and musician Dane Scott uncovers the profound connection between music, presence, and nature. Playing music, breathing life through living wood and stone and shell, with the rivers, beaches, and forests, receiving responses from birds and our cousins ... this is communion.

We also reflect on the enduring relevance of ancient stories and their wisdom in addressing modern ecological challenges, from the plight of New Zealand's indigenous peoples to the artistic transformation of myths into meaningful films. Dane emphasizes the cyclical nature of life, reminds us of the transient beauty of every experience and the growth that arises from both joy and sorrow.

Follow Dane HERE.

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Takeaways:

Takeaways Connecting with nature and listening to the sounds of the natural world can bring a sense of peace and connection.
Playing traditional musical instruments, such as taonga puoro, can deepen the connection with nature and evoke a sense of oneness.
There is a need to trust in the wisdom and animacy of the natural world and to listen to the messages it has to offer.
Communication with trees and nature requires being present, still, and open to receiving the responses.
The stages of communication with trees involve moving from boredom to surrender and allowing new realities to manifest.
It is important to ask the land and nature what they want and to be willing to listen and act accordingly. Listening to nature and acknowledging the animism in all living beings can deepen our connection to the natural world.
Ancient stories and myths hold wisdom and can provide guidance in our lives. Photography and film can capture the essence of individuals and nature, allowing us to see ourselves and the world in a new light.
Being present and embracing change are essential for personal growth and understanding our interconnectedness with the natural world.
Finding morality in our connection to nature and living in harmony with the cycles of life can bring about positive change.

Chapters

0:12 - Musical Creativity and Taonga Pūoro

15:51 - The Power of Connection and Presence

20:28 - Exploring Communication With Nature

25:57 - Listening to Nature's Wisdom

32:19 - Embracing Connection and Listening to Nature

39:24 - Journey of Listening and Connection

49:14 - Exploring the Journey Through Identity

54:53 - Ancient Stories and Healing Remedies

1:00:10 - Unveiling Ancient Stories for Modern Wisdom

1:05:03 - Eternal Cycle of Nature and Change

1:09:22 - Finding Liberation Through Growth

Transcript

D. Firth Griffith: 0:12

what, uh, what's the morning like over there?

Dane Scott: 0:15

oh dude, it's been like one thing to another. Like probably. Like 10 minutes ago I looked gloriously lit up by the sunshine, and now I'm just like enjoying the mosquitoes blowing in from the swamp because it's raining.

D. Firth Griffith: 0:34

Where are you at in New Zealand? I'm in the far north.

Dane Scott: 0:38

Yeah.

D. Firth Griffith: 0:39

Far north.

Dane Scott: 0:40

Probably two hours from the very top.

D. Firth Griffith: 0:43

Two hours from the very top. Two hours from the very top. It's so interesting the number of times that shalata has, uh, reoriented me, because as we go north here, we get colder, yeah, um, the days get shorter, and and the opposite is true for the south, but for you guys, it's the opposite yeah, yeah so so we're pretty much like a?

Dane Scott: 1:05

yeah, we're sort of sub sub-tropical, like temperate. Um, we got everything from mangoes to anything tropical you can imagine growing up. Yeah, lots of bananas. Yeah, wow, it's beautiful wow but in saying, that it gets a lot of rain. So you know, that's what you get in the tropics.

D. Firth Griffith: 1:28

Yeah, the north of New Zealand in the like end of winter, typically the rainy season.

Dane Scott: 1:33

Yeah, because we're in, we're coming, the seasons have shifted already. We're already in spring. You know we've got lambs everywhere. A lot of our plants that are in our, you know that we would find are already beginning to flower. So, yeah, it's that that in between seasons and all that sort of the warmth fully comes through, and yeah, it's, it's nice and damp. The thing of the north, though, is that, like most of as you would have known geography, most of most of New Zealand has got mountain ranges, yeah, and so the weather generally will get caught up in the. So if it's dry on the east, it's generally wet on the west, but here in Northland we don't have those maunga. I'm sort of in a little ecosystem where there is a few maunga around mountains, but generally, because there's only such a small part of land, the weather just goes swoop. So we're like a tropical island. It just you get those ocean storms come through, blow the front over and then it'll disappear. So we have literally like 15 seasons in a day.

D. Firth Griffith: 2:39

You make the instruments, the ancestral instruments. How did you get into that? I've always been curious.

Dane Scott: 2:49

Like shalita has never filled me in so for me, I guess, like many things in my life, it's come from a tap yeah, and shalita is is a testament to this, because she's tapped me a number of times, being like what it's, we've come to learn. Right, if chalita says what doing, you've got to make a decision quickly because, like it's coming, it's coming with a tucky, you know it's coming with a Boom. So, yeah, yeah for me, the way I found myself into tango, or translated as singing treasures. I was in Australia and I bought a no wind back. Actually, I was at a festival in the South Island on top of this crystal mountain and a friend pulled out a Native American flute, so you know, to back to the lands. Um, and I was like, wow, that sounds amazing. And I just had to go and she's like, and it, and it just came naturally and I was like one day, one day, and so fast forward, that one day happened when I was in australia and I found this beautiful double-barreled drone flute and I still have it today and it sort of opened me up to music. And along came COVID and I ended up back in New Zealand. I was locked down and in amongst that and we were released out of the COVID arm, someone gifted me a flute and it was just a very, very simple, simple flute, two holes in each end. That was it. And then we call that a kawawa, and for a long time I couldn't play it, had no idea, couldn't, couldn't work it out, and it's not. It's not. I mean, it's becoming, there's a resurgence, but it's not like, oh, can you do this? And so that's sort of how I found myself Gifted one but couldn't play it.

Dane Scott: 4:55

And then I went to this beautiful collaborative arts festival that was set under a wonderful monger along the ocean and 60 artists from around the world, a bunch from hawaii, and that came for eight days to make art together. And the premise of this kaupapa is that make all the art, you collaborate, you weave the masteries and then all of the art sold and that funds the next event. And so I was at this glassblower and he was like hey, do you want to make something? And I was like I'll make a kuowo. And I was like why? I don't even know how to play one. And this came out and this is, this is called mania, and it's a glass kuo-wo with three holes. And that set me on the challenge. That was like I have this taonga now I know what I need to do with it and I better learn. And it came really quickly and that was it. Within a year, I was surrounded by instruments and continue to this day.

Dane Scott: 6:10

And that transition into like, well, okay, I found this one, or how about I make that one? What if I did this? It's what I like to call like being a hototu. Now, chalita references this too. Hototu means to stand in the wind, stand tall in the wind and see what happens, and so, for us, ho totus are like the cheeky ones, the inquisitive ones that like to get involved and muck around. What if I add this to this, and what if I did that to that? What will happen and for me, that's the deepest lesson with Taonga Ploro is that we're just here to have fun, we're here to be children and we're here to see what happens.

D. Firth Griffith: 6:47

That's interesting. I mean, the image that you were giving me is this wonderful idea of creativity and music, co-creating that creativity inside of us and outside of us, and all of that marvelous stuff. And then you mentioned children, and then it instantly became very clear to me, because I think so much of us, we, we try to learn things, we want to learn things, and and maybe you can and maybe other people can, of course, but at the same time children just seem to have this unbelievable knack at finding very wonderfully creative and playful solutions to things that I couldn't have solved. And so that's what I'm getting from. Do you mind playing? Some Would?

Dane Scott: 7:30

you give us a note or two? Super keen to know whether or not that if the audio is going to work. I know Zoom does a weird thing where it drops out background noise, so for some reason Tom does not like to be, so I'll give it a go, see if he can hear well, if it doesn't work, you can just record it and send me it afterwards.

D. Firth Griffith: 7:49

We'll make sure it happens definitely watch it good awesome, yes, really good now I'll give you something now you'll give it to us. Yes, wonderful, absolutely wonderful. I just need to pause for a second. There's nothing like a flute, there's nothing like a wind instrument.

Dane Scott: 8:53

I think there's something to be said about that. There's nothing like a wind instrument, and what comes to me first off is that because it involves us. Yeah, we can smack things and we can play the drums and percussions. It involves us as well. Yeah, we can smack things and we can play the drums and percussions. Involves us as well, like a lot of other music. But when you breathe your breath, you know, in Te Ao Māori, whenever we finish our prayer, we say Ti hei mau I ora, which is the breath of life. And that's what I love about Taonga Pūrua Ituru, because it's your breath of life, that which sustains you, channeling through whatever the Taonga is, whatever the treasure is into sound, and that union is spectacular and I like to share with people that when we share taonga puro like one of the big teachings that I learned and I've always imparted is an embodied teaching is that taonga puro is the sounds of our taia, our natural world, and when we sing these songs, we always say listen, because there is always, always a response. You put that karangu out there, you put that kōla out there and you sing your song to nature, to our taiao. You'll always sing back, I'll always sing back, and I've learned that that's probably one of the most special things, because in a people that is fragmented from our natural world, we're constantly seeking the modalities and the medicine to bring us home. And for the children here in Aotearoa, being able to gift them, that is the greatest thing I can do in service, because I've done wānanga or workshops, and I've taken these treasures to them and we've made our own, whether it's out of clay, whether it's out of a gum nut or whether it's out of a shell that we've found on the beach. This is how our ancestors used to play taonga and kumuru. It was an everyday thing, and by gifting them that you know.

Dane Scott: 11:28

There's a question I pose in my wānau with the children and I say how many sounds do you think there are in nature? I get crazy answers, you know, as children are in their creative ways. You've got the multi-million, trillions, bazillions, and well, there could be 16 sounds in nature. You know like it's a, it's a spectrum, but when I let them sit with that and and one will come up with the answer infinite. I'm like carpal. That's great. So if, if we acknowledge that there is an infinite amount of sounds in our natural world, do you think you could ever make a wrong sound. That's a good question. And the epiphany, the light bulb that strikes through them in that moment, for those that receive that, this is beautiful.

Dane Scott: 12:34

I've witnessed children relinquish any sense of fear of creativity, any sense of fear around expression, and they not only take that into tango, into music, into their own lives and their connection to nature, but into every other aspect of their life. And I think, growing up personally as a child in a, you know, modern education system and being thrown into music classes and stuff, because you know, I loved music, I love music but I never conformed, I couldn't sit there and play the recorder like I couldn't play a recorder. Give me a recorder now I pick one up in an op shop and I can jam it. But it wasn't the bridge, the music theory for a young mind that only sees creativity as a soulful expression could not comprehend the maths. But now, passing children tango, trot on a shell from the beach and just being like blow, like this, they get it and they will fly with it. And it's not just the children, it's the adults, it's everyone. It is such a wonderful, wonderful gift to be able to share with people.

D. Firth Griffith: 13:57

For me, you know, that's my passion, that's on my heart, that's right there Because it's my passion, that's on my heart, that's right there Because it's so simple yeah, and it extends so far because you know so much of our work, so many of the conversations we have on this podcast as well, let alone the books I've written the books I am writing. So much of it it's trying to peel back the reasons we don't trust nature. Like I said recently on another podcast I was on as a guest I made the comment that you know we all want to believe that Mother Nature is animate, but very few of us want to believe that she's actually animate and that her animacy, that her wisdom, right, her response, her singing back, these infinite scores of music have anything to say actually that we need to listen to. And so many decisions in our lives are being made around this idea that, while we believe that nature is mother, we do not love nature as our mother, maybe like, like a metaphor, maybe we like or like our mother, but not as right.

D. Firth Griffith: 15:10

There's a huge difference there and with you and your words, there seems to be this unbelievable trust that the, that the music, your breath transforms into through these crafted instruments, these ancient instruments, these forms. There's a trust there and it's not an unlearned or unexperienced trust, but maybe it's a built trust over time. I don't know, maybe you can speak to that but there's a faith that your breath will co-create a musical reality. That is what needs to be played. Maybe it's not perfectly toner, right, maybe it's not in perfect sync with the, like you said, the maths of music, but it's what needs to be played. Maybe it's not perfectly toner, right. Maybe it's not in perfect sync with the, like you said, the maths of music, but it's what needed to be played. Talk to me about that faith, that trust, and maybe we can use this as a segue from music, as an idea to music and communication with trees and forests and our cousins and such.

Dane Scott: 16:06

Yeah, I love it, I love it and you're spot on. It's a brilliant way to frame it. It's a built trust, because it is. We don't all of a sudden pick up an instrument or pick up a tool and be like, oh yeah, I trust the trees. Now I trust that. It's like well, no, we don't trust ourselves.

Dane Scott: 16:28

That's generally where it comes from, and my experience is like I didn't trust myself to be able to have that connection, as much as someone can say man, you put it out and there is a karanga and there is a call that comes back. I didn't believe I could do that. Only until it's embodied, only until it's witnessed and observed and experienced, does it land. And that was it. That was that journey. Journey. It was walking the rivers, walking the beaches, the forests, and playing those songs and listening. At first you may hear oh, I play that song, I hear a manu, I hear the birds singing back to me. Okay, well, there's a confirmation. But as time went on, yes, I realized I can use this to communicate and to have that conversation, that korero. But it came to a point where, when I actually stopped and listened and asked, I was shown you don't need to play to have a response. I was showing you don't need to play to have a response. You don't need to blow anything, tap anything, do anything, but be present. And still, because I had walked rivers and walked forests and walked beaches for many, many a year before I ever found Taonga Pororo, and it's in that stillness and the reflection from our taiao, from our ancestors, speaking through our spirits. Well, you've done it this whole time and all it took was your presence.

Dane Scott: 18:16

Just because you found Taonga Pororo doesn't mean all that you have done has not been in connection to the oneness that is nature. But now your eyes are open, now your ears are listening, now your heart is receiving, and that's why I see this as a bridge, why and it was interesting actually, even in the creation of this instrument, you can see it in the light there. If I turn it, the light disappears. It's because every single section of this instrument has been carved, it's been etched, apart from that one line. It's been etched apart from that one line, and that one line was to represent from the end that I play or blow and share my breath, to the end that is released and connected to our creator, connected to Iwo Mata or Kore or Papatūānuku, mother Earth, connected to our everything, and that is to resemble that, because just being in presence is the bridge to the greater divine animism that we experience and we feel in this world.

Dane Scott: 19:33

So it's been a long journey, it's been a built experience of moments and man, I honestly I could go down a rabbit hole, of be like alice in wonderland. I honestly tell you of different moments that I've experienced in terms of showing up with the, with the mana and the modi, that power and that light force, essence, with my taonga in space to honor, to acknowledge, to mihi, like Chalita says kei te mihi, kei te mihi. It's just that acknowledgement. And we need to acknowledge these lands. We need to acknowledge the waters because all they are is a reflection of ourselves, to acknowledge the waters because all they are is a reflection of ourselves. And so, in that reflection of ourselves, I think that's where the karanga comes back to remind us that we are one.

D. Firth Griffith: 20:28

I think that's really hard for a lot of people. We're preparing to sit and share meals for, you know, for this winter season of ours that's slowly awakening, today is the first day of fall according to the moon. Not according to our calendars, but according to the moon it's fall and it is this. You know, we live in central Virginia, as many people know, and it's typically very hot. I mean, I'm not going to be able to translate it to Celsius very quickly, but you know it's average temperature from like 95 to 105 for most of the season long. So I don't know what that is Very hot, and just today, I mean, the new moon is here. She came last night around 7, 8 PM. Autumn has arisen, um, and there's been a gentle breeze. We sat on the, the outside of our house, on the porch, overlooking the james river, in the mountains all around us, the appalachian mountains, and it's like 75 degrees, and we just were like, yeah, it's autumn, you know well.

D. Firth Griffith: 21:36

Anyways, as autumn is awakening and other things, I fell into that ramble talking about how hard the idea of a response is, I think, for many people. A book, and he was making a comment about animism and how ridiculous animism is because it's humans envisioning a humanity inside of, like a tree or something like this, and that's why trees scare us, because we see a human in there. And I think what we get confused a lot is I don't know what that is. That's just idiocy, in my opinion. To see a human inside of a tree I mean, hopefully there's a spirit inside of a tree that is not human, like of course, like that's. That's the point While also at the same time, it is kind of still whatever we are. So like there's this one ship, but kinship, so there's kinship between parts and one ship between holes, and I don't really know how to tease that out.

D. Firth Griffith: 22:46

Maybe you want to play your hand at it, but to truly actually believe that when you sit at a base of a tree and allow that quietness to progress into boredom, to progress into complete overwhelm with the cacophony and the music all around you and I think that's the stage People talk about stages of grief I think those are the stages of true communication. First you sit, then you become how? How do you understand animacy? How do you understand communication? I think a lot of people, when they listen to me talk and they just literally think I sit there and I hear like the English language coming out of a tree and the lips grow like in some Disney movie. You know like, help us through that Right, so ground us and then help us back into the ether again, because I liked where we were.

Dane Scott: 23:41

I love the idea of big lips coming out of a tree, and I mean to be honest, there's some trees here that I swear. Sometimes they look at me.

D. Firth Griffith: 23:49

I love you. I love you so much, Dane.

Dane Scott: 23:53

Seriously, there's some trees. Actually, I've got to say I'm going to take a photo. He told me his name the other day. So we've got a beautiful little river that flows through here and I saw this tree and it's like fully reaching down. It sits about, I can't even. It's about a meter off the river right and I was like, wow, man, you're really there. And I was like I hear this.

Dane Scott: 24:19

His name is Jay, jay. Yeah, I'm a water monitor, my name's Jay. And I was like, okay, bro, but I'm going back to your lips. He, literally at the bottom of it, is this root that's got this big smile and these holes, and it's just the holes in the wood. But it's like every time I go to the river and to sit there with my cacao and then and just maybe play some. So now I'm, now I'm in this intimate relationship with jay. It's one of my homies that sits on the other side of the river, keeps track of all the water that flows beneath them. So like I'm all for the lips. You know, like it does make it easier to make that personification and the human connection if you just feel like you're hanging out with your bro, j just like.

Dane Scott: 25:01

But going back to that, the bridging of the worlds. I feel, I feel that you're right. You know, there is those stages of communication, there is the stages of surrender. You know, I don't know if you've ever done vipassana, but vipassana is torture, you know it's. It's not for the faint of heart to sit there for 10 days in silent meditation and there ain't no trees involved, but, man, when I got out of the room after sitting there for hours and hours, the trees were singing to me and you become alive in that world because you feel that animism. And so I think, going through that stages of boredom and surrender, I think there's a path there to just be an observation, just be.

Dane Scott: 25:57

And I have to Tautoko Totoko, like acknowledge you, man, in your first book that you wrote, because you really speak to that and I really, really appreciated the way that you articulated that animism and the way that your kinship relations, because reading that was a wonderful, wonderful acknowledgement and an affirmation for myself. It was a wonderful, wonderful acknowledgement and an affirmation for myself because we can walk this earth completely blind, completely deaf and completely just unfelt, but it takes removing ourselves from that cultivo, that doing that, doing space to be there, and I feel like that is that bridge, through that border, is that when we can just be with no mental comprehension or mental projection of what we have to do, you know there's no heaven, it's just completely being. I believe that is our first connection back to nature, because nature does nothing more than follow its innate knowing. It's not understanding some math and calculation, it knows the power of the geometry of life, you know. And a wonderful acknowledgement right outside my door I, I'm reminded of it. So we have a beautiful fern, beautiful big pangu, and I've watched seven throngs over the course of the last three weeks, just unfurl.

Dane Scott: 27:28

I mean, this is the kuru, this is it. Yeah, and to give reference, this is our Manakee media logo. So Manakee in English means to uplift, to protect, to support and and, and that's that's this, it's the unfurling, it's the, it's the walking the path and seeing what finds out, finding out what happens, seeing what may unfold, and so, yeah, I, I really sense that there's a path where I've just gone fully into the stars with that. Let me just rewind back to the ether and then I'll come back to the earth. You just set the challenge to be like go take it to the ether, and I did, but I was like, shall I? I forgot to bring everyone with me me.

D. Firth Griffith: 28:24

Well, I think, if I can interrupt you, I think, you know, I think, for me and I approach this much more experimentally because our culture, I don't know, I I've, you know, we, just our culture is is yet to catch up, and and, of course, every culture has their own difficulties, like, for instance, genocide and slavery, and oppression, and colonization is, um, among many of those. Uh, my point, though, is so much of my understanding and so much of my tree communication, if you will, so much my experience in that fluid state, that fluid connective state, um, it's just, you know, sitting out there and and that's just the end of it, but I, but I do, you know, I think there's a huge difference between sitting at the base of a tree and being like cool, yeah, so, uh, you can, you can start talking now, you go ahead, this is cool, you know, I heard this, this podcast. He said go talk to trees, you know, like that's one, you know, and that's whatever. I found myself doing that, of course, and then this huge, huge weight just lifted off me one day when I was sitting there, and I realized that if something were to be said, and if that something was uncomfortable, what would I do and that single question. I think it changed my life Because you know, even myself and I've said this for half a decade, you know, like you know, we're in the agricultural space.

D. Firth Griffith: 29:48

I do a lot of biological assays and ecological monitoring. Historically we don't really do that much anymore, but I've stood in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of fields with thousands of farmers, you know, and I've always pointed out and I said, you know what's your vision for this landscape? And they'll tell me it's always agricultural, of course, it's always pretty linear. I want a diverse, you know, meadowland of grasses and a couple legumes to support the energy and the nitrogen fixation in the soil and the nodules of bacteria and such. That's their vision. And and then, you know, I asked, I said, well, did you ask the land, like the meadow? Did you ask if she wants this too? You know, and there's usually a smirk on their face and it's a pretty benign question because, like, they think I'm joking with them.

D. Firth Griffith: 30:34

I'm not, you know, I'm fully serious Like did you ask, you know I'm fully serious like, did you ask, you know, and they'll be like, oh, you know, yeah, whatever. And then I was like and I and I and I started to ask, because this is very uncomfortable and I and as you can see in this part, like I cannot do small talk, I can't physically get myself, I'm just not good at it, and so I typically find myself to get very serious very quickly, because there's only a couple options you can either laugh in a serious way or you can cry in a serious way, and I'm good for both, and so to some degree I would cry in a serious way with these farmers and I would say, well, if she told you she wanted to be a forest number one, would you be able to listen? I think that's number one and number two would you allow her to become a forest? And the answer is always no, absolutely no.

D. Firth Griffith: 31:21

We're agricultural, we have cows. Cows eat grass. Grass doesn't grow in forests. So, like no, I actually have no interest in asking the land what she wants to be, because I have no interest in actually listening and then applying that listening through my life, in my life, of my life, and so I think there's a huge difference between being willing to listen and being willing to actually allow that listening to manifest a new reality in ourselves, and I think people obviously struggle with both. But I really believe that, if you were to focus on the second point, that you can just skip right over the first point seamlessly, like if you're okay with the tree telling you you're wrong, you're going to hear the tree say something. But if you don't believe the tree is going to be able to tell you you're wrong and you're just perfect soul, you're not actually listening. So, anyways, that's my little tidbit, why you're kind of grounding yourself back into the, the subether, if you will.

Dane Scott: 32:19

I like it, I really I like the benign question, because I think that question you know, for me the pattern, I think it's like you know, seeing the pattern of the microcosm and the macrocosm I've come to understand is that everything exists within itself and everything is a exists within itself and everything is a reflection of itself and everything has that polarity. And so, asking that question to the trees, and whether what you're willing to listen, often in my experience it comes from that internal are we willing to listen to ourselves as well, truly listen to ourselves? I'm not talking about the self that needs to put money in the bank account and food on the table. You know like, are we truly listening to our own needs? And I, and I really like, like that, that, that notion that you say, because I I had this experience of the day.

Dane Scott: 33:15

I actually don't have one around me, but I was sanding what we call a puririho. I have one here. This is the start of one right, and so this is just a piece of wood, and you may know them as bull roars.

Dane Scott: 33:29

The Native Americans use them, they're found all around the world and they sort of wear around on a string and make a sound, yeah, so I was in this process of shaping this to bring to you guys, to bring over to the states to play this one. When I come over and I was working away and I was having this conversation, I thought I was having a conversation. I mean, I was having a conversation with sandy. I'm making this, I'm doing this, you know it's going to be this and it's going to be beautiful and it's it's there for this. And then it flung out of my hand and in that space I thought, well, I'm really present, you know, like I'm really listening, I'm really having a conversation. And I said, but was I listening? And then I just went quiet and I was like that's a toru. That thing just flew out of my hand onto the rocks, like that wasn't a good toru. It Like that wasn't a good toru, it wasn't a good sign. What am I not listening to? And I listened and the puriri who were on the ground was like you ain't doing nothing. I know what I'm meant to be. I'm just utilizing you in this beautiful symbiosis to come into creation.

Dane Scott: 34:42

And that struck me creation. And that struck me like that struck me. I mean you can listen to trees and we can acknowledge the animism and the living. But this is a living, this holds the memory of that tree and in that space I really learned a powerful lesson to not discredit just because it's rooted in the ground doesn't mean it has the animism, just because it doesn't have the conversation, doesn't have the memory.

Dane Scott: 35:07

And I was like, wow, I need to be more present, I need to be really honoring and acknowledging of the mauri and the life force that sits within everything, because everything has its innate pattern, innate knowledge, innate expression of what it wishes to become. When there was a seed, it knew it was going to become a Pūhirihoa. It went through its process of becoming a tree, going through all of those journeys to be milled up into a piece of wood, to be presented, to turn into an instrument to travel the world to the far off lands where it will sing its songs, sing its songs that it remembered when the birds used to sit in its branches.

D. Firth Griffith: 35:53

I don't do this comfortably. I don't like extending things, it's not my style, especially in conversation but I continually find myself doing it here and so I'm going to stay with it. It's the image, that's true, but so much of what you're saying is so present in our lives. You know, over the last year actually right about this time last year I started to write my last book that just came out this past spring, and we went through a really deep period because so much of the world that we had operated in up to that period of time, over the last maybe decade, has been a. Climate change is real, climate chaos is real. Food systems, food shortages obviously expedited and exposed by by covid and you know, all of these things like these are not false statements. The climate is undulating and the food is obviously not in a good place. It's very precarious. All of these things are true, but what I was writing with in the spirits that I really felt like they needed to be seen were all boiling down to like it's okay, just that you're not focusing on the right thing. It's just, it's okay and that's all I had. Just very simple, very like you said very humdrum, very benign, daily sort.

D. Firth Griffith: 37:10

Well then I was talking to a good friend of mine, a Lakota pipe carrier, um son dancer, and, and he changed my life. And it's at the end of the book and really long story short. He said, daniel, your hope is in a particular outcome, but your hope should be in living the life that you were put here to live and nothing more. Even if that doesn't produce an outcome that you perceive to be as good, don't worry about the outcome. Live the life that you were given to live and that's it. And so then he then asked me so what is that life? Write about that life like that. That's that's what you need to be writing and thinking about, not trying to reverse climate change, but to be the human that you know. Creator put you on this earth to be and, and and that's fine. Do that and just love that and be that and grieve for that, and then rejoice in that and dance with that and play, make music on that and everything else so like, and then rejoice in that and dance with that and make music on that and everything else. So that's that foundation.

D. Firth Griffith: 38:03

But we immediately got spit out by the regenerative agriculture and the green agriculture. Everybody didn't want anything to do with us because what we were advertising, what we were really getting to in these podcasts that we were putting out, to the books that we were writing and such, to the essays and articles I was publishing online in different journals and things is, what if climate change was Earth, looking at humanity and just running away in grief? Not running away, but bending away in grief because she's still here, not running away, but like bending away in grief because she's still here? Like what if climate change is not something for us to solve but an invitation for us to come back in that one ship, that kinship and I write about, you know, one ship and kinship being both lateral and vertical. You have like the oneness that runs vertical in my opinion.

D. Firth Griffith: 38:55

And then you know you said that you mentioned that was a source into the divine and I agree with that and then you have the kinship, which is a little bit more lateral to me, meaning that you know, you and I are kin, me and the trees are kin.

D. Firth Griffith: 39:06

We have kinship with that which surrounds us and through feeling and communicating and loving and having relation with our kin, we're able to also bring that, that vertical aspect, into it. We can all by going out we go up and by out going up, we go out, and you have that wonderful cross type symbolism. Um, but it requires letting go of outcomes. Is is the point that I'm getting to listening to your story, listening to the idea that that, that, that that marvelous music is being created by you. Know a tree that listened to the bird song, that knew it was gonna make music long before and all that you were supposed to do was help it get there. You're not in control of it, you're just an aspect of its kinship in that story. To move it from here to there, it's like a metamorphosis, and to do more than that would have been to step beyond your role, and to do less than that would be to neglect your role.

Dane Scott: 40:00

Yeah, it's spot on, and that kinship, the kinship, collaboration for that piece of wood to require my support to become its truest and greatest form, required me to listen humbly. There's a journey, you know, and there's a journey of deafness, there's a journey of blindness, and it's all a part of it, a big part that obviously I've been journeying with at the moment. And I say at the moment it's more of like in terms of scale of time, in the last week, the last four days, because we have also just come through the new moon, and here in Aotearoa, in Te Ao Māori, we call it whero. And so this is a journey that I've been on because whero represents in our creation story and this is keeping within the theme of trees whero is the older brother of one of our atua, tane Maruta. And so if you've ever heard of the story of Papa and Lange, our earth mother and our sky father being separated, our creation story, it was Tane Maruta, our great kauri tree, that took that upon himself, to split the parents apart. So Wheru was his older brother. So Wheru was never tasked with that job and Tāne, on one of his hikoi, on one of his journeys, he was sent to the upper heaven, the 12th heaven to receive the three kete of wāna, the three baskets of knowledge, and come down for the people. And as Tāne sent, on that journey, fero sent everything. He sent the bats and the mosquitoes and the midges and the owls. He sent these things after him because he was jealous, he was angry and he held that darkness. He held that pain because he was jealous, he was angry and he held that darkness. He held that pain because he wasn't chosen, whether or not he was seen or not. We can only project our own animism and our own human centric sort of projections into that creation story.

Dane Scott: 42:15

But I've been in different situations where I've been playing Taonga Puro and acknowledgement of the land and I've been attacked per se, you know, like by the mosquitoes, by the midges, by the sand flies that come and take that life force, take that blood for their own life force. Generally speaking, in an unconscious state you're like get out of here, man, what are you up to? But in the purity of playing taonga puru or te taiao, I learned a lesson to surrender, to receive, because they are all children, whether they come from our aatua fero. That resembles that darkness, that anger, that pain, the jealousy. It's accepted as a part of the whole. And so I was sitting by the Awa the other day in the same situation, whole.

Dane Scott: 43:16

So I was sitting by the hour the other day in the same situation, sanding this piece of tile wood, wearing this t-shirt, and it dawned on me. I went on this big journey because in the creation myth, fero follows Tane up. Tane gets the three kete, comes home. Fero gets there and Eeyore, our God, our oneness, the divine, gives him another kete, another basket of knowledge, and it's the fourth basket. The fourth kete holds all of the things that he carries inside him, of that anger, the jealousy and the war, and he brings that back.

Dane Scott: 44:04

And I really journeyed with that sitting there, because it's in that acknowledgement of the darkness and the unconscious mind that we have existed, in that we emerge from the darkness and the light from our heart. And I was like wow, wow and the big epiphany for me in that listening, in that listening to our world and my own relationship to our creation story, and how I have felt that, how I have felt the pain of climate change, how I have felt the torture of the mental landscape of our human kin because of the world that we exist in, whether it's within our control or not. And it allowed me to differentiate that we hold the three kete of wānanga in our story you know, tāne holds it in the light and we have the one kete in the darkness, but they're separate. And it allowed me in that moment to take that weight off and to put it in that seppurikete that I acknowledged as being felt as being the darkness, as being the infinite, nothing but the space of full potential. For when we acknowledge and sit within the darkness can we only emerge in the light. And it just liberated me in the sense of that story of control.

Dane Scott: 45:44

Who am I to control anything? My duty is to be curious, is to be the childlike excellence of life itself, just the wonderful curation of chaos that, in its nature of being, finds water. And so it's wonderful, in that opportunity, to have sat by the river and purely listen. And I say this for the reason of where we were speaking before, in terms of the stages of listening to a tree. We may have initially had that boredom, but sometimes we don't have that boredom. Sometimes our own internal narrative is so vibrant and alive that we may hear the surrounds.

Dane Scott: 46:43

But it's in that relationship of of our self narrative can we bridge into that world of connection?

Dane Scott: 46:51

Because if you're really aware of the thoughts that are moving through your heart and your mind and you have the ears to listen to your environment, it is confirming, affirming and aligning your thoughts to your heart. If you are truly aware of what is passing through you, as maybe a manu sings, you may have this bigger epiphany and be like wow, you know, I feel like this, you know I feel great today and the sun is shining and all of a sudden, this bird will swoop past you or I'll be like man thank you so much, like just giving my love back. Next minute the wind will lift beneath me. My love back. Next minute the wind will lift beneath me. Yeah, it's. It's in that innate being with our own internal narrative can we also find that connection to nature, because it's there, listening to us and it's not trying to control anything but give you gentle, taps and gentle anything but give you gentle taps and gentle afi, the support for you to figure it out yourself.

D. Firth Griffith: 48:06

I think a lot of us are approaching this, uh, especially when it comes down to, you know, agriculture or something like this. I just I don't know why this is so omnipresent in my brain. Agriculture, in the moment, I usually don't like it this close, but it is, you know, and I see this all the time. People talk about cows self-medicating in the meadows Like, oh no, no, my cows, they medicate on what they need and it's this adaptive, you know, grazing management system or whatever.

D. Firth Griffith: 48:38

But to me that's like sitting with trees and being like cool, yeah, so like, talk to me, like you know, what can I do for you? And the tree is like, no, what can I do for you? What can I do as you? Who can we become together? Like? It's like thank you for being here, thank you for acknowledging this, but you are so far. You are so far from acknowledging like thank you for being here, thank you for acknowledging this, but you are so far, you are so far from acknowledging the animacy, the kinship, the oneness that we share with Creator things like this man. I had all this intention to talk about photos too, because you can take one hell of a photo, my friend. Now the story and the communication and the animacy and the ethereal it's all just being woven.

Dane Scott: 49:24

I'm so appreciative of this. It's what I found. I think this is and I'm going to be clear and honest with this when you originally set the challenge to be like slid into my DMs and were like yo, shalita says we should talk, and I was like cool, let's have a chat man. This, you know, like, when you originally set the challenge to be like slid into my dms and like yo, shalita says we should talk, when I was like cool, let's have a chat man, and then you're like I need a bio and photos, and I was like I closed the message immediately, bro, and I ran my nervous system just kicked into flight mode and I bailed because I I struggle. You know, I've struggled I'm going to take that word back. I've've struggled because I really strongly also just to side note I really strongly believe in affirmation and words as spells as much as music.

Dane Scott: 50:06

I have struggled in the past the past tense. I struggled with identity because I have a curiosity for life and when it comes to writing a bio man, I could write a million different bios. I used to have multiple CVs because of my eclectic life. You know, I've applied science degree in marine biology, environmental management, scuba instructor, professional photographer, filmmaker Now you know, doing Taunga Porouan sound. I've been a builder, a roofer you know, like the list is endless. Builder, roofer, you know, like the list is endless. Head chef of restaurants, like it's. It's my curiosity for life and what I can put my hand at that has given me such a a myriad of colors.

Dane Scott: 50:48

And when it comes to putting down a bio, I challenged by the identity. But it come to this point where I realized that's just a colorful landscape where I can exist. I don't have to cultivate or be anything. And I feel oftentimes, when we identify with one thing, we limit ourselves, we try and put it in. And so to acknowledge you had all these ideas about photos and that corridor, it's like well, it's a part of it. You know the animism, the way we see the world is the way we then share that world and that's what I've come to really embody. Is that everything that I have ever done in my life has all been part of a greater plan that I have no idea. I don't know where I'm going.

Dane Scott: 51:49

I may have some ideas, but once again, that oneness and the kinship, because in the reflection of my kins and the connection to the oneness do I find my path and I love photography. I love empowering people and if we want to pivot there, one of the most beautiful things I find about photography, in my expression of it, is that you can capture someone in their being, can capture someone in their divinity of love and expression. With no sense of mental comprehension and control of the act of doing, do you capture their essence and you share that back to them, and I've had so many people take an image and just stir them emotionally to tears at times because they have never seen themselves. We look in the mirror all the time. We are constantly seeing reflections of ourselves, but we truly see ourselves not often.

Dane Scott: 52:54

So for me, my journey into film photography came from working in the environmental field, working in the agricultural sector, working to try and create change, and I soon learned, after giving many, many hours and weeks and energy of my time for the greater good of a project, only to find often that it was the highest bidder or the corporate that changed the results and I was disheartened. But when I found that I could take an image and tell a story and manifest change on a level that I could have never imagined, I found strength in that and I've followed that path and it it was a stepping stone, it was a clock of time where I stepped off the journey that I felt was environmental management and marine biology and my essence into creating change in the world, and I had to trust that the journey of photography and film was going to lead me back and I knew they said you're going to come back full circle and it's all going to mean something. And it did. And now I am telling the stories of the nature that I listen to. I am telling the stories that weave everything together Because what I have experienced inside myself, I know nature's experience in her see, the metaphor in life, and I can articulate the metaphor as a bridge for you to find the trueness and the oneness with above, below and all around.

Dane Scott: 54:53

It's a special thing to be able to witness the world in its purity, thing to be able to witness the world in its purity, and I'm a lover of old stories. I'm a lover of old stories and I don't know if I mean I know there's probably many people out there but, like I, have a bad habit which is a good habit of collecting books but not necessarily reading all of them. Like I've been through op shops and I've found so many books on Native American stories, on different indigenous cultures, anything from some whimsical dude that's done regenerative planting somewhere in the world Like I just have this library. Dude, it's done a regenerative planting somewhere in the world, I just have this library. But this library has empowered me because it holds knowledge, it holds story, it holds truths of myself and some people out there love tarot cards. Man, I just love flicking a book open and seeing what it wishes to tell me and it's fun, it's seriously fun. If you've got a question, just find a book that you're drawn to open it and see what it has to share. Nature is the same.

Dane Scott: 56:14

But to come back once again to those stories that are so ancient, that are held in the lands, held in those that listen, the indigenous people of the land, this is where the etheric world of myth and filmmaking and photography, for me, clash. They clash in a beautiful way, like the creation of the cosmos. They clash into this beautiful reality. That's new. And so we have this thing here in New Zealand and once again, acknowledging Tāne-Mau-Uta is our kauri tree, one of the greatest, mightiest trees in our forest.

Dane Scott: 56:55

We have a problem here in Aotearoa and it's Phytophora. We have a problem here in Aotearoa and it's phytophora. And phytophora is this fungal that prevents the nutrient uptake from the root systems of these trees, eventually cutting them off from the life force that they require from the earth and their diet. And so in one of our old puraka, our old stories, and so in one of our old purāku, our old stories, they say the kauri, the tree, and the tōhora, the whale, are brothers. So for a lot of people they would just be like One second. That doesn't make sense.

Dane Scott: 57:34

The whale lives in the ocean. Come on, come on. This is before the domains of, of earth and water, and and that had been fully defined. You know, I mean, the whale is a mammal, it breeds here. So that you know, like, riddle me this for a while, you can imagine it once upon a time, walking on land, the tree firmly rooted, just chilling, but let's talk about, goes on this journey. You know, he goes out and checks tongue with all. This is the god of the ocean. He goes, checks out his domain, he swims around oh my god, I'm so free, look at this beautiful place. And he comes back to the code and goes you should come with me. Man like this place is awesome. Cody's like no, no, this is my place, I meant to be here. It's like cool, it's right on the defining line of like in the epoch where the domains of the gods or whatever are being consolidated. So they were sort of like it's like the Cinderella and the pumpkin hour You've got until 12 o'clock, otherwise it's. And so the Tōhutau, the whale's like man, I'm going to the ocean, cody's like I'm staying here, and they impart gifts to one another. And the gift of the Cody the Cody gives him his fat, his blubber, his extra insulation, gives that to the whale, and the whale gives him a gift in return. And that's a wonderful story of kinship.

Dane Scott: 59:02

But where it gets really weird and really wicked and really awesome is that when we look at today and the current problem we have with Vitao, fran Cody, the term that's used here in New Zealand, which I don't like to repeat, is called Cody dieback. But in my belief, if you ever wanted to manifest that, why would you say it? Cody dieback, for me, just perpetuates the problem. So I choose to say Cody, order, cody, life, order is a life force. Life, you know, it's order is. Is that a life force, and so there are people that are trying to, you know, really do do about good for this challenge at the moment, and what they've found is that there is a concoction of blubber and certain other parts of the whale that has been mixed into a rongua and given to the tree and it is preventing the phytophthora from expanding.

Dane Scott: 1:00:10

So there is a phenomenal, phenomenal connection between ancient myth and mythology, as modern people, modern society, tends to create this world. That is fantastical. It comes from this land of nonsense and creativity, but I see truth, I see wisdom, I see a blueprint in our old stories that allows us the invitation to truth, and that is a story that I was gifted and I sat with it and I allowed it to move me and then I listened, and I listened as that story came back to me over and over and over, from different people, other little pieces and avenues of like oh I work with the Cody, oh I've been doing this or I've done that, and that is a film that I endeavor to work on. I'm currently working on the pre-production at the moment, in that state of listening, listening to the path, listening to the people, the voices that seek to share that, and I see that film emerging into the world as a tool, as a treasure, is something that we can see and hopefully, and all I can do is hope and trust that, with no control over the outcome that I hope to see is that, in an essence, people will hear story, see that bridge and walk across it and on the other side, they will pick up all of those books that they may have collected or read those stories and shout, wow, that's wonderful and a fantastic, wonderful, far off land, and bring it home to themselves to be like wow, what can the story teach me?

Dane Scott: 1:02:19

One of the biggest things that I found is that we've lost what morality is morality in a sense of society, but a morality in our own inquisition of story. You know, I remember growing up as a kid and people, what's the moral of the story? What's the moral of the story in the fast-paced existence of social media and swipe left, swipe right, we don't have a second for morality, and it's another thing that I feel is just steering us off the path. And so, to come back to the photo and the video, it's no different than this. This is storytelling. It's no different than this this is storytelling.

Dane Scott: 1:02:59

And if it's a modality of photography or film, or tongue or portal, it is all delivering story. And that's my service, you know like, on this recent journey. On this recent journey, I should say recent journey I come to understand our kaupapa with a dear brother of mine, jordan Ranson, as we do with Menaki Media, and what landed for me is our kaupapa is Menaki before media, and in that is that we endeavor to be in service, to uplift, to support, to listen, to share, before we ever step into the world of media. So it's passing that to you, bro.

D. Firth Griffith: 1:03:50

You were talking earlier about the Vipassana and meditating deeply and being in silence, and then when you emerge out of that, everything is so alive. And I think to some large degree it's true because you've allowed it to be true deeply and being in silence. And then when you emerge out of that, everything is so alive. And I think to some large degree it's true because you've allowed it to be true. But I also think it's true because, for the first time for many people it's it's a moment not that I've done it, but done things similar it's a moment where you are not a priority anymore. You are not the loud gong ringing you know technology, dinging species you're quiet, and in that quietness it's not that because you are quiet, nature is loud, but rather that when you are quiet, as you are quiet, you are able to realize, to, to acknowledge, to attune yourself to that oneship, to that kinship as well, and that's what you're getting at here too. I think it's nothing I want to add. I was listening to you and I thought to myself this is just a very fine way for me to nod my head and say yes, absolutely yes, and so maybe it's a fine thing for me just to do that. I want to conclude with this.

D. Firth Griffith: 1:05:03

I surround myself with a number of books that I pick up often, one of which is the Fellowship of the Ring by JRR Tolkien. It's not necessarily old mythology, but it's just a wonderful story, and I just open it and I read a couple pages every now and again, and I've probably read the book hundreds of times at this point. Um, you so willingly and and and wisefully shared your creation story. Is there any other stories or maybe a story in your life that you keep close? A book, maybe a tale, but you find yourself being drawn back to time and time again.

Dane Scott: 1:05:39

I have a. It's yeah, it's a tough question. It's a tough question because I do have some, but some is like you know, that's it's a humble way of there's. There's many, there's many stories that I that I frequently come back to and I obviously have shared a couple and they continue to expand, because it's not necessarily in my process of coming back to story. It's looking forward to story. It's because everything is forever unfurling and evolving.

Dane Scott: 1:06:19

What I have found is that I'm constantly greeted with more parts of myself the more I grow and the more stories I receive. A lot of my other work is holding space, is standing for my brothers and my sisters in ceremony and mental health spaces. I've journeyed a lot with that environment and I guess the biggest story that I come back to is the story that we're all one and the stories that I hear in reflection of all of my brothers and sisters, and the trees and the bees that remind me of who I am, remind me of the trials and tribulations, and the light and the bees that remind me of who I am, remind me of the trials and tribulations, and the light and the dark, because we're not apart from, we're a part of, and so that would be the story that I continue to return to is just the interconnectedness and the observation and the listening that is all around me, affirming me in my state of being, and, as much as it sounds glorified and beautiful, it's a journey of presence, of presence, and it's, it's this essence of of nature that is the cycle, and I think that probably the biggest story that I come back to is is the bipolar nature, bipolar rhythm of nature. The bipolar nature, bipolar rhythm of nature, is that everything has its polarity, everything has its seasons, and as we sit together, we're in the definition of that. As you're in the first day of fall, I'm greeted by what seems to be the first day of spring, because since we started this conversation now, the blue sky is out and the sun is kissing the leaves.

Dane Scott: 1:08:24

I realize that nature has the ups and downs, and who are we to think otherwise?

Dane Scott: 1:08:29

Because we lose ourselves in the bottom and the top of our experience, into the darkness, into the light, and the story that I continue to come home to is that the only constant is change and in the depths of my grief, of love expressed, I found myself tortured but reminded that this too shall pass. Tortured, but reminded that this too shall pass. And in the height of the glory of sitting in the sunshine, basking in the beauty of the oneness, I am reminded this too shall pass. And I'll descend back into the underworld to pick some beautiful golden stones, some nuggets of composure, and bring them back and share them with everybody. I think that is the story that I return back to and share most often is to enjoy the black water, because that shall pass, but don't forget to look for the bottom, look for the golden pebbles, look for the thread that connects it all, because it's liberating. Just like the trees have their seasons and lose their leaves only to sprout new ones, it's like we too shed and we too grow.

D. Firth Griffith: 1:09:52

I'm not often speechless. People who've been here for long enough will know this, but I do I feel speechless. People who've been here for long enough will know this, but I do, I feel speechless and I thank you more than I can well iterate. I thank you.